❌ Software Removal | Ubuntu #2365

New Issue

2021-07-04T12:39:51Z

peepo5 commented

2021-07-04 12:39:51 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

Description

This is a request to remove Ubuntu from the recommended operating systems (and replace with a privacy-respecting alternative such as linux mint) as it collects data on users that could be used to de-anonymize and target users. It promotes snap's data collection, promotes proprietary projects containing telemetry over closed source alternatives, and has a bad track record for privacy in general. Just as a note, this writeup is not conclusive and I am sure there are more concerns around the OS.

Ubuntu is one of the LEAST private linux operating systems.
Compared to windows/mac, yes it is way better in terms of data, but it is still harvesting data and sending it, increasing the possibility to de-anonymize users. This should not be a recommended distribution for a privacy-related distribution.

I would like to clarify this is not a security/usability issue. It is only a privacy issue. Even if ubuntu has good security, it has nothing to do with PRIVACYtools.

This site is based around privacy-based services, and even though ubuntu might be a good distro at surface level, as it is polished and is seen as secure, it has many underlining privacy issues that cannot be ignored.

There are serious concerns as of identification inside the ubuntu operating system within install and general use.
For the introductory user, they likely wont dig into the settings to change privacy permissions, and there are still cases where collection of data cannot be toggled.

Sources:

https://micahflee.com/2013/11/canonical-shouldnt-abuse-trademark-law-to-silence-critics-of-its-privacy-decisions/

http://www.fixubuntu.com/

https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1270858-ubuntu-privacy-issues-eerily-similar-to-windows-10/

https://www.google.com/amp/www.networkworld.com/article/3060673/linux/popular-desktop-linux-distro-ubuntu-has-potentially-serious-privacy-flaw.amp.html

(Old issue, but this privacy violation was not prevented) https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/10/privacy-ubuntu-1210-amazon-ads-and-data-leaks

(Some of these issues might be outdated, but the fact is, if they allow these features in the past, why not do the same in the future?)

Ubuntu uses google trackers on its' website:

66% of ubuntu users opt in for tracking:

Source: https://ubuntu.com/desktop/statistics

Why I am making the suggestion

It is not a privacy-focused distribution, and while it may be user friendly, it has some similar tendancies to windows, the way it goes about analytics.

My connection with the software

I am a privacy enthusiast and I feel this is not suitable for a 'privacy-respecting' distro. Just because it is linux, does not mean it is privacy respecting.

I will keep the issue up-to-date if something I have said changes or I remember a connection with the software.

## Description This is a request to remove Ubuntu from the recommended operating systems (and replace with a privacy-respecting alternative such as linux mint) as it collects data on users that could be used to de-anonymize and target users. It promotes snap's data collection, promotes proprietary projects containing telemetry over closed source alternatives, and has a bad track record for privacy in general. Just as a note, this writeup is not conclusive and I am sure there are more concerns around the OS. Ubuntu is one of the LEAST private linux operating systems. Compared to windows/mac, yes it is way better in terms of data, but it is still harvesting data and sending it, increasing the possibility to de-anonymize users. This should not be a recommended distribution for a privacy-related distribution. I would like to clarify this is not a security/usability issue. It is only a privacy issue. Even if ubuntu has good security, it has nothing to do with PRIVACYtools. This site is based around privacy-based services, and even though ubuntu might be a good distro at surface level, as it is polished and is seen as secure, it has many underlining privacy issues that cannot be ignored. There are serious concerns as of identification inside the ubuntu operating system within install and general use. For the introductory user, they likely wont dig into the settings to change privacy permissions, and there are still cases where collection of data cannot be toggled. Sources: [https://micahflee.com/2013/11/canonical-shouldnt-abuse-trademark-law-to-silence-critics-of-its-privacy-decisions/](https://micahflee.com/2013/11/canonical-shouldnt-abuse-trademark-law-to-silence-critics-of-its-privacy-decisions/) [http://www.fixubuntu.com/](http://www.fixubuntu.com/) [https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1270858-ubuntu-privacy-issues-eerily-similar-to-windows-10/](https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1270858-ubuntu-privacy-issues-eerily-similar-to-windows-10/) [https://www.google.com/amp/www.networkworld.com/article/3060673/linux/popular-desktop-linux-distro-ubuntu-has-potentially-serious-privacy-flaw.amp.html](https://www.google.com/amp/www.networkworld.com/article/3060673/linux/popular-desktop-linux-distro-ubuntu-has-potentially-serious-privacy-flaw.amp.html) (Old issue, but this privacy violation was not prevented) [https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/10/privacy-ubuntu-1210-amazon-ads-and-data-leaks](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/10/privacy-ubuntu-1210-amazon-ads-and-data-leaks) (Some of these issues might be outdated, but the fact is, if they allow these features in the past, why not do the same in the future?) Ubuntu uses google trackers on its' website: ![image](https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/72892531/124384260-4d193680-dcc8-11eb-8549-ab6ff74307a0.png) 66% of ubuntu users opt in for tracking: ![image](https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/72892531/124384290-6621e780-dcc8-11eb-8624-516eccd7fa7c.png) Source: [https://ubuntu.com/desktop/statistics](https://ubuntu.com/desktop/statistics) ## Why I am making the suggestion It is not a privacy-focused distribution, and while it may be user friendly, it has some similar tendancies to windows, the way it goes about analytics. ## My connection with the software I am a privacy enthusiast and I feel this is not suitable for a 'privacy-respecting' distro. Just because it is linux, does not mean it is privacy respecting. - [x] I will keep the issue up-to-date if something I have said changes or I remember a connection with the software.

👍 6

ghost commented

2021-07-04 20:24:37 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

I absolutely agree. There is no point in recommending Ubuntu when many other beginner distros like Pop!_OS and Mint exist. They are just as easy to use if not easier, actually respect privacy, and are based on Ubuntu so they can make use of all its fantastic documentation. When Ubuntu was originally listed it caused a lot of controversy on why PTIO would ever even recommend it. I think its time we took it down and put Mint and Pop! in its place.

👍 2

peepo5 commented

2021-07-04 20:56:40 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

I am not sure popos is that different from ubuntu as much as mint is, but I would have to look into both.
I think it would be good to add artix (#2364) in beginner friendly options, but for an ubuntu-based distro I heard mint is good.

I am not sure popos is that different from ubuntu as much as mint is, but I would have to look into both. I think it would be good to add artix (#2364) in beginner friendly options, but for an ubuntu-based distro I heard mint is good.

peepo5 commented

2021-07-04 21:03:38 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

Relevant video: https://youtu.be/x1B3SekvqnM
(Please focus on points in issue rather than this, but it can be looked at for reasoning)

Relevant video: https://youtu.be/x1B3SekvqnM (Please focus on points in issue rather than this, but it can be looked at for reasoning)

ghost commented

2021-07-04 21:51:32 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

I am not sure popos is that different from ubuntu as much as mint is

The main reason to recommend Pop! is it is similar to Ubuntu but has all the telemntary removed. It also has alot more built in customization, better performance, a very nice tiling window manager, changes to optimize gaming, and it does not push the user towards snaps. It is pretty much Ubuntu but better in every way. It also has an NVIDIA version if anyone is interested in that. Mint is another option for those who want a more Windows like layout.

I think it would be good to add artix (#2364) in beginner friendly options

I don't think it would be good for beginners. It seems more like an intermediate distro at best. I think all the issues brought up in (https://github.com/privacytools/privacytools.io/issues/2356) about Manjaro for beginners also apply to Artix which actually seems to be a bit harder to use than Manjaro.

Relevant video: https://youtu.be/x1B3SekvqnM

I actually watched this when it first came out. Great video discussing the topic.

>I am not sure popos is that different from ubuntu as much as mint is The main reason to recommend Pop! is it is similar to Ubuntu but has all the telemntary removed. It also has alot more built in customization, better performance, a very nice tiling window manager, changes to optimize gaming, and it does not push the user towards snaps. It is pretty much Ubuntu but better in every way. It also has an NVIDIA version if anyone is interested in that. Mint is another option for those who want a more Windows like layout. >I think it would be good to add artix (#2364) in beginner friendly options I don't think it would be good for beginners. It seems more like an intermediate distro at best. I think all the issues brought up in (https://github.com/privacytools/privacytools.io/issues/2356) about Manjaro for beginners also apply to Artix which actually seems to be a bit harder to use than Manjaro. >Relevant video: https://youtu.be/x1B3SekvqnM I actually watched this when it first came out. Great video discussing the topic.

samuel-lucas6 commented

2021-07-05 09:26:46 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

I absolutely agree. There is no point in recommending Ubuntu when many other beginner distros like Pop!_OS and Mint exist. They are just as easy to use if not easier, actually respect privacy, and are based on Ubuntu so they can make use of all its fantastic documentation. When Ubuntu was originally listed it caused a lot of controversy on why PTIO would ever even recommend it. I think its time we took it down and put Mint and Pop! in its place.

I also agree. Ubuntu is an improvement over Windows and macOS, but Pop!_OS and Linux Mint are both better distros to recommend.

> > > I absolutely agree. There is no point in recommending Ubuntu when many other beginner distros like Pop!_OS and Mint exist. They are just as easy to use if not easier, actually respect privacy, and are based on Ubuntu so they can make use of all its fantastic documentation. When Ubuntu was originally listed it caused a lot of controversy on why PTIO would ever even recommend it. I think its time we took it down and put Mint and Pop! in its place. I also agree. Ubuntu is an improvement over Windows and macOS, but Pop!_OS and Linux Mint are both better distros to recommend.

peepo5 commented

2021-07-05 10:17:51 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

@FriendlyRobotBird
I agree with your comment.
There is no intermediate category but it might make sense to introduce a new category.
Gentoo, arch, DIY linux could be advanced
artix could be intermediate
popos, mint, fedora could be introductory

@FriendlyRobotBird I agree with your comment. There is no intermediate category but it might make sense to introduce a new category. Gentoo, arch, DIY linux could be advanced artix could be intermediate popos, mint, fedora could be introductory

peepo5 commented

2021-07-06 19:07:01 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

I was thinking, manjaro could be in introductory, artix intermediate and arch advanced
(all arch-based but pretty different)

I was thinking, manjaro could be in introductory, artix intermediate and arch advanced (all arch-based but pretty different)

samuel-lucas6 commented

2021-07-06 20:08:58 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

I was thinking, manjaro could be in introductory, artix intermediate and arch advanced
(all arch-based but pretty different)

I doubt Manjaro will ever be recommended for the reasons I listed here. I believe some of the PrivacyTools team have discussed the SSL certificate issue before somewhere, although I can't remember where I read that.

> > > I was thinking, manjaro could be in introductory, artix intermediate and arch advanced > (all arch-based but pretty different) I doubt Manjaro will ever be recommended for the reasons I listed [here](https://github.com/privacytools/privacytools.io/issues/2356#issuecomment-868494309). I believe some of the PrivacyTools team have discussed the SSL certificate issue before somewhere, although I can't remember where I read that.

peepo5 commented

2021-07-12 14:28:14 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

protect your privacy - "by using ubuntu" biggest fucking joke i heard this year

Super-Macintosh commented

2021-07-15 20:24:28 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

Yes i can confirm Ubuntu sell data to Amazon directly in the OS
I wonder why it's here it was valid before it was good for confidentiality

Yes i can confirm Ubuntu sell data to Amazon directly in the OS I wonder why it's here it was valid before it was good for confidentiality

dngray commented

2021-07-17 12:28:18 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

All of the links you've presented are not relevant and haven't been for almost a decade or more. (2012) etc.

It's also worth mentioning Linux mint's website has google adverts. That is not part of the criteria and you're more than welcome to get it from a local ftp mirror.

Yes i can confirm Ubuntu sell data to Amazon directly in the OS

Amazon store is not included anymore, hasn't been since 20.04, and you also haven't provided any evidence that they "sell data to amazon".

All of the links you've presented are not relevant and haven't been for almost a decade or more. (2012) etc. It's also worth mentioning Linux mint's website has google adverts. That is not part of the criteria and you're more than welcome to get it from a local ftp mirror. > Yes i can confirm Ubuntu sell data to Amazon directly in the OS Amazon store is not included anymore, hasn't been since 20.04, and you also haven't provided any evidence that they "sell data to amazon".

samuel-lucas6 commented

2021-07-17 13:13:34 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

All of the links you've presented are not relevant and haven't been for almost a decade or more. (2012) etc.

It's also worth mentioning Linux mint's website has google adverts. That is not part of the criteria and you're more than welcome to get it from a local ftp mirror.

Yes i can confirm Ubuntu sell data to Amazon directly in the OS

Amazon store is not included anymore, hasn't been since 20.04, and you also haven't provided any evidence that they "sell data to amazon".

Whilst I agree that this Amazon discussion and so on is now misinformation, the point still stands that there are multiple Ubuntu based distros that should arguably be recommended instead of Ubuntu. For example, Pop!_OS (#2356), Linux Mint (#2338), and elementary OS. These distros have some advantages and a better reputation compared to Ubuntu.

> > > All of the links you've presented are not relevant and haven't been for almost a decade or more. (2012) etc. > > It's also worth mentioning Linux mint's website has google adverts. That is not part of the criteria and you're more than welcome to get it from a local ftp mirror. > > > Yes i can confirm Ubuntu sell data to Amazon directly in the OS > > Amazon store is not included anymore, hasn't been since 20.04, and you also haven't provided any evidence that they "sell data to amazon". Whilst I agree that this Amazon discussion and so on is now misinformation, the point still stands that there are multiple Ubuntu based distros that should arguably be recommended instead of Ubuntu. For example, Pop!_OS (#2356), Linux Mint (#2338), and elementary OS. These distros have some advantages and a better reputation compared to Ubuntu.

👍 4

ghost commented

2021-07-19 10:56:20 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

While I agree that many of the links posted where either wrong or outdated, Ubuntu still does collect some telemetry. While it is still way better than using Windows or Mac, why even recommend it when there are other Linux distros out there that do everything Ubuntu does but also remove all the telemetry? The reason Pop!_OS(https://github.com/privacytools/privacytools.io/issues/2356) and Linux Mint(https://github.com/privacytools/privacytools.io/issues/2338) where being suggested in the first place was because Ubuntu is not the best option for privacy and the fact that the current introductory OS section is very lacking.

dngray commented

2021-07-21 05:14:27 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

In the past we'd refrained from mentioning every ubuntu/debian derivative, as there are a lot of them. When we mention Ubuntu, we include any of Canonical's derivatives. (Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu etc).

I think the main reasons against Linux Mint were that they didn't have an upgrade tool and their documentation said the only way to upgrade was a fresh install, although that doesn't seem to be the case now.. The other reason was that their site used Google Analytics, although I don't feel that is a particularly strong point.

As for Pop!_OS in the past we considered that to be "too new", and likely tightly coupled support with System76's offerings disqualifying it. I would be curious to know how well things like firmware updating work with it when not using a computer from System76.

In the past we'd refrained from mentioning every ubuntu/debian derivative, as there are a lot of them. When we mention Ubuntu, we include any of Canonical's derivatives. (Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu etc). I think the main reasons against Linux Mint were that they didn't have an upgrade tool and their documentation said the only way to upgrade was a fresh install, although that [doesn't seem to be the case now.](https://linuxmint-user-guide.readthedocs.io/en/latest/upgrade-to-mint-20.html). The other reason was that their site used Google Analytics, although I don't feel that is a particularly strong point. As for Pop!_OS in the past we considered that to be "too new", and likely tightly coupled support with System76's offerings disqualifying it. I would be curious to know how well things like firmware updating work with it when not using a computer from System76.

samuel-lucas6 commented

2021-07-21 09:03:29 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

In the past we'd refrained from mentioning every ubuntu/debian derivative, as there are a lot of them. When we mention Ubuntu, we include any of Canonical's derivatives. (Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu etc).

That's understandable, but since we're talking about beginner friendly distros, there should be a few that can be recommended above the others. For example, Linux Mint has a similar default layout to Windows.

I think the main reasons against Linux Mint were that they didn't have an upgrade tool and their documentation said the only way to upgrade was a fresh install, although that doesn't seem to be the case now.. The other reason was that their site used Google Analytics, although I don't feel that is a particularly strong point.

I'll admit that I wasn't aware of that. However, since that's now resolved and the Ubuntu website uses Google Analytics, that no longer seems to be justification for not listing it. A better argument against listing it would be that the OS and website look rather dated, which may put some people off. Ubuntu, Windows, and macOS look significantly better by default. Anybody arguing otherwise probably isn't a Windows or macOS user.

As for Pop!_OS in the past we considered that to be "too new", and likely tightly coupled support with System76's offerings disqualifying it. I would be curious to know how well things like firmware updating work with it when not using a computer from System76.

I see. After Linus Tech Tips started recommending it, it seems to have risen in popularity to become one of the most recommended beginner distros. It has a good track record so far besides things like the freezing bug I discussed in #2356, which is likely related to Ubuntu. However, I can't comment on the firmware updating.

> In the past we'd refrained from mentioning every ubuntu/debian derivative, as there are a lot of them. When we mention Ubuntu, we include any of Canonical's derivatives. (Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu etc). That's understandable, but since we're talking about beginner friendly distros, there should be a few that can be recommended above the others. For example, Linux Mint has a similar default layout to Windows. > I think the main reasons against Linux Mint were that they didn't have an upgrade tool and their documentation said the only way to upgrade was a fresh install, although that doesn't seem to be the case now.. The other reason was that their site used Google Analytics, although I don't feel that is a particularly strong point. I'll admit that I wasn't aware of that. However, since that's now resolved and the Ubuntu website uses Google Analytics, that no longer seems to be justification for not listing it. A better argument against listing it would be that the OS and website look rather dated, which may put some people off. Ubuntu, Windows, and macOS look significantly better by default. Anybody arguing otherwise probably isn't a Windows or macOS user. > As for Pop!_OS in the past we considered that to be "too new", and likely tightly coupled support with System76's offerings disqualifying it. I would be curious to know how well things like firmware updating work with it when not using a computer from System76. I see. After Linus Tech Tips started recommending it, it seems to have risen in popularity to become one of the most recommended beginner distros. It has a good track record so far besides things like the freezing bug I discussed in #2356, which is likely related to Ubuntu. However, I can't comment on the firmware updating.

dngray commented

2021-07-23 03:03:16 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

I'll admit that I wasn't aware of that. However, since that's now resolved and the Ubuntu website uses Google Analytics, that no longer seems to be justification for not listing it.

Agreed.

I see. After Linus Tech Tips started recommending it, it seems to have risen in popularity to become one of the most recommended beginner distros.

If it works well enough then sure. I don't use every distribution listed there so we could look into that.

> I'll admit that I wasn't aware of that. However, since that's now resolved and the Ubuntu website uses Google Analytics, that no longer seems to be justification for not listing it. Agreed. > I see. After Linus Tech Tips started recommending it, it seems to have risen in popularity to become one of the most recommended beginner distros. If it works well enough then sure. I don't use every distribution listed there so we could look into that.

👍 2

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