❌ Software Removal | Startpage.com #1409
Labels
No Label
🔍🤖 Search Engines
approved
dependencies
duplicate
feedback wanted
high priority
I2P
iOS
low priority
OS
Self-contained networks
Social media
stale
streaming
todo
Tor
WIP
wontfix
XMPP
[m]
₿ cryptocurrency
ℹ️ help wanted
↔️ file sharing
⚙️ web extensions
✨ enhancement
❌ software removal
💬 discussion
🤖 Android
🐛 bug
💢 conflicting
📝 correction
🆘 critical
📧 email
🔒 file encryption
📁 file storage
🦊 Firefox
💻 hardware
🌐 hosting
🏠 housekeeping
🔐 password managers
🧰 productivity tools
🔎 research required
🌐 Social News Aggregators
🆕 software suggestion
👥 team chat
🔒 VPN
🌐 website issue
🚫 Windows
👁️ browsers
🖊️ digital notebooks
🗄️ DNS
🗨️ instant messaging (im)
🇦🇶 translations
No Milestone
No Assignees
1 Participants
No due date set.
Dependencies
No dependencies set.
Reference: privacyguides/privacytools.io#1409
Loading…
Reference in New Issue
No description provided.
Delete Branch "%!s(<nil>)"
Deleting a branch is permanent. Although the deleted branch may continue to exist for a short time before it actually gets removed, it CANNOT be undone in most cases. Continue?
Description
Startpage is now (partly?) owned by System1, a company which...
Seeing as Startpage has made a name for itself by offering advertisements that rely solely on what consumers enter into their search box like DuckDuckGo, etc., this seems like a questionable decision.
Source: Startpage's press release.
Just a thought before pulling....Should you invite the CEO of System1 to share his plans for Startpage at reddit r/privacy and/or r/privacytoolsio? He's newly installed in August. (CEO of DuckDuckGo Gabriel Weinberg has always been open to posting.)
Here's information on the new CEO Ian Weingarten: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/system1-appoints-ian-weingarten-ceo-185700741.html
Here's an excerpt from that press release:
"Weingarten has over 25 years of experience spanning operations, corporate and business development, and private equity. Most recently, he served as SVP of Corporate Development and Partnerships at Yahoo, where he oversaw thousands of partnerships with companies such as Google, Microsoft, and Mozilla and spearheaded the company's sale to Verizon...."
Not sure what he would say, but at least he would be given a hearing.
Privacytools.io is extremely influential in the privacy world. Once you pull Startpage, other privacy sites will follow. There are also bound to be journalists who will write about it. This could crush this privacy alternative.
Hi Jonah. Were you able to reach out to System1 CEO Ian Weingarten?
People are making assumptions because no one from System1 is responding, and the Startpage Twitter account is down. There's already a really critical article online by Techrights. I think the sooner he responds, the better.
Note to thread followers, there is also an ongoing discussion at https://forum.privacytools.io/t/candidate-for-delisting-discussion-startpage/284/3.
Also, do you all still recommend StartMail? I would assume this affects them too. I know you used to, but I am too lazy to check if you still do haha.
@danarel they are currently still listed as an email provider.
The Startpage team did reach out to me via email, which I posted about at https://forum.privacytools.io/t/candidate-for-delisting-discussion-startpage/284/25?u=jonah. So, with that I'll leave it to @privacytoolsIO/editorial to work out a decision...
@JonahAragon
The AMA that Startpage kept was really disappointing. They did not answer any important questions regarding Startpage's new ownership. They only answered questions where they could promote themselves and maintain good PR. They circled questions related to the System 1/Privacy One Group.
Also, the email you received seems to be just a PR message and doesn't explain what is happening at all. Only irrelevant advertising like "now we can be more private".
So for the Startpage's damage control (would that be the most appropriate word for this?) and circumventing the questions, I don't think they are faithful at all and would give us a reason to trust them.
So I think privacytoolsIO should definitely remove Startpage from the list.
They started their AMA at the start of a weekend. I don't know how Dutch workweeks go, but I'd give them a few more days for AMA responses.
It's likely that out of all the "worldwide product, support and brand teams" that are monitoring that reddit account, the one with the answers (or the one that needs to verify the answers to make sure they don't say anything that is not safe for brand) is off for the weekend.
Dutch people work 8 to five generally, weekend means weekend.
It's not only the weekend, Startpage/System1 was bombarded with questions. I'd give them a few more days to get through them all.
Since they have answered questions and the CEO released a statement, maybe a privacy concern badge that links to the Reddit page? Let users decide if they still trust them?
Did they answer the questions? I haven't seen the answers myself. Where are they, danarel?
One key question is "What is Privacy One Group Ltd. ?" Where is it located? (country, city, state?)
another important one
What % of Startpage did System1 purchase?
Many others are left unanswered as well, AFAIK
No sign of any such entity on OpenCorporates, and a search under Privacy One (without "Group") does not appear to show any recent companies, despite the System1 claim of P1G being a "separate company" (not group).
Meanwhile, "There are also bound to be journalists who will write about it" ..yeah us (other) snoopy guys are watching, doncha worry ;)
Good to see Startpage/System1 posting some new answers, and I'm following up. They are referring to Privacy One Group as a division of System 1, which suggests the real investor was System1. ?
They never say what % of Startpage System 1 purchased. (Actually, the entities I found were the Dutch companies -- Surfboard Holding B.V. which own Startpage B.V.)
Public records I found show there was a change in directors for Surfboard Holding B.V. on 12/31/2018, which suggests any sale happened in December 2018, not January 2019. Michael Lewis Blend was named director 12/31/2018. (Blend was Co-Founder and CEO of System1 at that time. Blend is now Chairman and Ian Weinstein is CEO.) John Paul Civantos was also named director of Surfboard Holding B.V on 12/31/2018. (Civantos is with Court Square Capital and on the System1 Board, I believe.)
The Surfboard B.V. articles of association appear to have changed in in mid July. Not sure why. I haven't found a public record that details this. Perhaps that can be found in the Dutch documents available for purchase.
The last audit made public was by Europrise from what I can tell.
I am SO happy to hear there will be a diagram to show the flow of data! Excellent!
Which dates back to 2015, after earlier certification in 2011. So questions about significant changes should go back at least that far, not just to time since sale?
And is EuroPriSe officially recognised, anywhere, e.g. by state authorities such as national IT security bodies, or is it its own little, self-contained, self-referring pool of experts? Who certifies the certifiers, in other words.
Nor do we know who the external security consultant/s are or were.
Meanwhile, Startpage may be answering, but as they say themselves: "this was not a formal AMA".
This seems like a good solution for the moment at least. My primary concern is that if we jump to delist Startpage now without giving them at least the opportunity to address the community (it was the weekend, after all) this will turn into another Matrix/Riot debacle. Kneejerk reactions to new news—if the news itself is not a definitive concern—makes us look bad. @danarel I'd be interested to know whether any of this has convinced you to relist them on thinkprivacy.io.
I agree with you completely, Jonah. They deserve more time to answer questions.
By the way, as I've said many times, I believe it is unfair and unwise to ask questions of Startpage/System1 only. In the "privacy gold rush" there could be many privacy services being given offers and being sold.
I recommend we reach out to other privacy services, including other search engines, browsers etc., with the same basic questions.
Would Privacytools.IO be a good central location to organize this kind out outreach and document findings?
Well we could write a blog post on the findings and decisions following it if thats what you mean.
Good point, jasonbrown1965, though I believe the certification didn't expire until June 2017. Startpage mentioned in a Knowledgebase article that it was going to do new audits after the new rules to certify under GDPR were available. I don't know if these new certification rules are available.
Good point. Startpage mentioned Europrise changes in a Knowledgebase article that suggested they wanted to seek out another certifying body.
I think it would be helpful to link information found to the recommended services at PrivacytoolsIO so people can make more informed decisions. Of course, I recognize that smaller, open source services couldn't afford in-depth audits, but they could offer other kinds of proof.
Simply posting information on a blog would keep it somewhat out of view. I think a central location with links to documentation would be ideal. It's a big job, but I think the community might get involved with finalizing uniform questions and obtaining responses.
I decided yesterday to re-add them, not because I am totally sold on the product yet, but because I was previously, and they have taken at least some basic steps to address concerns. I linked to the statement from the CEO and reddit page to allow visitors to be informed and make up their own minds about it.
If in the future they prove to not be privacy focused, then I will totally remove them.
I'm curious. What would you do @danarel @JonahAragon Trai_Dep if Startpage/System1 or someone connected to them offers a donation, work or any kind of compensation to you or any organization tied to you? You would disclose that, even if you didn't accept, right? (I wouldn't hold accepting it against you, btw. I consulted with the old Startpage for many years and disclosed that relationship, as you know. Lights have to stay on.)
@LizMcIntyre in theory i dont have an issue w/ them getting donations from a place like that, if they disclose it and are transparent in what influence, if any that organization has on their mission. If it's going to change the ToS or anything like that.
What makes the StartPage one so strange is that we are still waiting on real clarity. We have the CEO statement now, but there's still some unanswered questions which could impact the actual privacy of the user.
What I look for is transparency, and then history. Does this organization have a history of doing the right thing, do I reason to believe they will continue to do so, and how will I know if that's compromised?
I agree with you @danarel.
I'm floored by what seems to be purposeful dodging -- and the lack of clarity you point out. I have always known the "old" Startpage to be very transparent. I perceive a major shift in attitude. This is reflected in the website wording changes forced by the marriage of a privacy organization with a pay-per-click behavioral advertising company.
For example, the old Startpage "About us" page archived on January 1, 2019, touts the following:
The current Startpage "About us" page cuts off that boast to say:
Startpage can no longer claim to be "independent" from big tech and data mining companies, which may get to the heart of the problem.
I can tell you that Startpage did have a history of transparency and doing the right thing. For example, I could go right to the tech team with any question -- even a tough question -- and get a straight answer. Pronto. That was really important to me as a privacy advocate and spokesperson for the company.
Compare that with my repeated request for information about Privacy One Group Ltd. Why the heck won't they just answer my question? And why did it take 9 months to finally post something about the company-changing information regarding the sale/investment?
@danarel From one of the responses:
Does this mean Startpage is set to be delisted @Mikaela ? When will this happen?
#1410 is just kind of preparation if we do decide to delist them.
Ultimately @LizMcIntyre this is the main issue we're debating. This change seems to have caused a massive shift in the culture at StartPage as well and they aren't quite as convincing that they are actually focused on user-privacy above all else :(
What JonahAragon said, the commit is from earlier PR #1410 before your suggestion to reach out to StartPage at first and then there were wording changes in the search engine page causing a merge conflict and I think that previous notification is me rebasing the PR, so in case we decide to delist it, it will be just approving and merging that PR instead of having to also worry about the merge conflict.
Personally I cannot comment this issue either way yet, as I haven't read up the discussions (here/Discourse/Reddit) yet and I am ~2 weeks behind on everything. The little that I have seen here tonight doesn't seem very promising though.
Yes, and furthermore we are now legally obligated to 1) disclose our contributors and expenses, and 2) only use our contributions in a way that furthers the project, if you hadn't seen the recent news I've been posting.
Amazing. This is awesome and yet another reason for everyone to support PrivacytoolsIO and the important work you are doing!
EDIT: I'm glad to see that sponsorships will in no way influence recommendations, removals or warnings.
Something has shown up in a Delaware company search today as Privacy One Group Limited (with the "Limited" spelled out instead of the "Ltd" spelling at the Startpage blog post). Is this the company Startpage/System1 is referencing? It shows as being being incorporated 12/10/2018.
If so, is Privacy One Group Limited wholly owned by System1? Is it registered to operate in any particular U.S. State?
If not wholly owned by System1, what % of it is owned by System1?
What % of Surfboard Holding B.V. (Dutch holding company for Startpage) was purchased by System1 directly or through Privacy One Group in December 2018? What % does it own as of today?
I've just posed these questions to Startpage at the original r/privacy post and at the Startpage reddit post here.
Thanks for being on their tail liz!
Really wishing Startpage/System1 would answer the basic questions. It's really heartbreaking to see what's happening.
I know I've asked Privacytools to give Startpage time to answer questions. How much more time are you willing to give them before de-listing? Maybe you would re-list them if they answer transparently at some point?
I could not agree more. If they are transparent about their business, they can be put back in place. Even though and considering that this might has a lot of impact on a service that was/is one of the better privacy friendly search engines.
I reached out to a manager at Startpage and verified that the company is aware of the longstanding unanswered questions at its subreddit and at the original r/privacy thread here.
Since I'm the one who asked multiple times that Startpage be given more time to answer, I'm assuming people are looking to me for some signal that the proper time and opportunity have been given. PrivacytoolsIO has been more than generous, and I thank you for your patience.
If you choose not to de-list Startpage immediately, you could place a privacy alert like the one @danarel recommended and link to the original r/privacy post about the System1 investment in the company. The community could always discuss re-listing or removing a privacy caution if the company answers transparently at some point.
I agree with redditors who believe failure to take action sends the wrong message -- especially since we plan to reach out to other privacy companies with similar questions.
I think the right course of action is to remove it until we get proper answers.
Privacytools is a place were people should be able to rely on the recommendations. So: i say remove it, with a note explaining the situation shortly, and a list of things we the team want answered before we can consider re listing it.
Have you created the "note" yet with the questions? Most of those unanswered ones can be found here.
Will there be an official press announcement someplace, like at CommonDreams?
We havent decided that yet, would you like to help out with the question list? You might have some insights we have missed.
EDIT2:
This short note might work, @blacklight447-ptio :
The Startpage search engine is de-listed until it is fully transparent about its new ownership and data processing.
Why is startpage still listed without a warning? Is Startpage a Privacytools sponsor or something? Come on, plant at least a "floor is wet" sign.
No, they are not our sponsor. If they would become our sponsor, that
would be public on https://opencollective.com/privacytoolsIO. Anyway,
even if they would be our sponsor, it wouldn't matter.
The lack of communication (and proper action) feels shady.
Hi @dawidpotocki and @itookyourusername I believe the delay is over getting an appropriate note in place. (I was cc'd on this a few hours ago.) It's easy to remove a service, but without some kind of note, those who use a recommended service might not know that service has lost trust -- or why.
This is also a reason to do a press release somewhere like CommonDreams and in other channels so those who might not return will be alerted. The media would also want to know about these changes because PrivacytoolsIO recommendations are held in high esteem.
How would you recommend getting the word out beyond PrivacytoolsIO and reddit privacy threads?
It looks like #1410 is ready to go , @itookyourusername Here's the deploy preview.
Is this correct @nitrohorse @dawidpotocki ? I saw that you signed off. Is there a wait for a deliverable or a review by @blacklight447-ptio before the merge? Let me know if you need anything else from me.
@lizmcintyre im writing a blog post on the topic tonight, when its done, we push the pr and publish the blog.
I would appreciate it if as many people can spread the word about it as they can, so its more likely to gain their attention. This is probbaly the biggest shot we as the privacy community have to get any more answers.
Agreed. Hopefully this sends the message that any company recommended by PrivacytoolsIO must be forthcoming and honest about its ownership, data processing and business practices.
Be sure to post the URL for sharing when it's ready.
@lizmcintyre is there a way i can contact you for proof reading?
Sure. I'll ping you at reddit with an email address.
@lizmcintyre ive send you the draft.
EDIT: Just returned via email. Sorry for the delay.
https://blog.privacytools.io/delisting-startpage/
@lizmcintyre the blog post is now live, thanks for your edits.
EDIT: words
Thanks for the link!
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Tuesday, November 12, 2019 4:22 PM, blacklight447 notifications@github.com wrote:
Thank you Liz!