Go through Operating Systems section #1376

New Issue

2019-10-05T08:22:54Z

Mikaela commented

2019-10-05 08:22:54 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

We have talked within the team that the OS page also needs going through like VPN was recently. We have some obscure recommendations which connection to privacy is not obvious at first (or even now that I am typing this).

See also: https://github.com/privacytoolsIO/privacytools.io/issues/1370

We have talked within the team that the OS page also needs going through like VPN was recently. We have some obscure recommendations which connection to privacy is not obvious at first (or even now that I am typing this). See also: https://github.com/privacytoolsIO/privacytools.io/issues/1370

Mikaela commented

2019-10-05 08:30:36 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

#1368 makes me wonder if we should copy https://github.com/privacytoolsIO/privacytools.io/issues/1346 to have more categories for OSes (depending on which we will list):

For everyone (I think Fedora has been suggested for this one)
With a bit CLI curiosity (I think Debian fits here due to distribution upgrades (Debian x -> Debian y) require config file editing)
Advanced/enthustiastic (Arch, Void, Alpine, OpenBSD?)

I remember that we have discussed Devuan, Void and Alpine previously, but the context may have been favourite distributions and whether they make sense to list and I think we were leaning towards no (isn't it good that an issue was opened immediately so we don't have to remember random team chats? 😅)

#1368 makes me wonder if we should copy https://github.com/privacytoolsIO/privacytools.io/issues/1346 to have more categories for OSes (depending on which we will list): * For everyone (I think Fedora has been suggested for this one) * With a bit CLI curiosity (I think Debian fits here due to distribution upgrades (Debian x -> Debian y) require config file editing) * Advanced/enthustiastic (Arch, Void, Alpine, OpenBSD?) I remember that we have discussed Devuan, Void and Alpine previously, but the context may have been favourite distributions and whether they make sense to list and I think we were leaning towards no (isn't it good that an issue was opened immediately so we don't have to remember random team chats? :sweat_smile:)

dawidpotocki commented

2019-10-05 08:58:07 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

I remember that we have discussed Devuan, Void and Alpine previously, but the context may have been favourite distributions and whether they make sense to list and I think we were leaning towards no (isn't it good that an issue was opened immediately so we don't have to remember random team chats? 😅)

I was talking about Void (which I use) and Alpine as possible
replacements for Arch, but as I said, it doesn't make much sense to list
them and was suggesting Devuan, as it is direct alternative to Debian,
which we list as "main" recommendation.

> I remember that we have discussed Devuan, Void and Alpine previously, but the context may have been favourite distributions and whether they make sense to list and I think we were leaning towards no (isn't it good that an issue was opened immediately so we don't have to remember random team chats? :sweat_smile:) I was talking about Void (which I use) and Alpine as _possible_ replacements for Arch, but as I said, it doesn't make much sense to list them and was suggesting Devuan, as it is direct alternative to Debian, which we list as "main" recommendation.

👍 1

dngray commented

2020-05-05 18:40:37 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

Okay, so I've had think about this. These are requirements I think we should have:

Distribution recommendations must support reproducible builds, for anything other than desktop distributions.
Must have good user documentation
Must not be OEM distributions designed to run on a hardware.
Must not be niche distributions, by this I mean things which basically nobody uses, poorly documented etc
Must be not some fork over politics or other related nonsense.

and Alpine as possible replacements for Arch

I do not believe this is a good idea. Arch Linux is a mainstream distribution with a lot of up to date documentation.

To be honest I don't think we should focus too much on advanced/enthusiast distributions. Arch Linux and Alpine Linux is enough for that. Alpine Linux is particularly nice for servers and does have some unique features such as lbu.

Okay, so I've had think about this. These are requirements I think we should have: 1. Distribution recommendations must support [reproducible builds](https://reproducible-builds.org/), for anything other than desktop distributions. 2. Must have good user documentation 3. Must not be OEM distributions designed to run on a hardware. 4. Must not be niche distributions, by this I mean things which basically nobody uses, poorly documented etc 5. Must be not some fork over politics or other related nonsense. > and Alpine as _possible_ replacements for Arch I do not believe this is a good idea. Arch Linux is a mainstream distribution with a lot of up to date documentation. To be honest I don't think we should focus too much on advanced/enthusiast distributions. Arch Linux and Alpine Linux is enough for that. Alpine Linux is particularly nice for servers and does have some unique features such as [lbu](https://wiki.alpinelinux.org/wiki/Alpine_local_backup).

dngray commented

2020-05-05 20:00:32 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

I'm thinking of doing away with the worth mentioning category, we've been trying to phase that out on the site because something either is or isn't worth mentioning. I am leaning towards a list that looks like this.

There are thousands of distributions out there and I really only want to recommend things are not niche, and are aimed at a wide community.

Desktop

These are aimed at Linux first-time users. They need to work out of the box with minimal configuration and maintenance. They are typically going to be options for people who've come from Windows.

Ubuntu - stable lots of documentation, excellent choice for beginners due to its polish. More frequent releases than Debian.
Fedora - another long time desktop distribution
OpenSUSE - has good vendor support and reproducible builds.
Manjaro - possibly for users with bleeding edge hardware requiring latest kernels/drivers.

Advanced

Must provide some kind of advanced feature or purpose and support/aim to support reproducible builds.

Alpine Linux - ram disk, good for containers, hypervisor etc
Arch Linux - good documentation well known and supported
Debian - well known and supported by vendors
Guix - reproducible builds (a main focus), rollbacks, source based, better documentation than Nix (multiple languages translated).
Qubes OS - good distro for use with a hypervisor for people dealing with un-trusted files, want to use virtual machines without having to manage the hypervisor themselves.

Tor focused distributions

Distributions aimed at being configured default for torification of all network traffic

Tails - amnesic
Whonix - provides advanced Torification, physical isolation, etc.

I'm thinking of doing away with the worth mentioning category, we've been trying to phase that out on the site because something either is or isn't worth mentioning. I am leaning towards a list that looks like this. There are thousands of distributions out there and I really only want to recommend things are not niche, and are aimed at a wide community. #### Desktop These are aimed at Linux first-time users. They need to work out of the box with minimal configuration and maintenance. They are typically going to be options for people who've come from Windows. - Ubuntu - stable lots of documentation, excellent choice for beginners due to its polish. More frequent releases than Debian. - Fedora - another long time desktop distribution - OpenSUSE - has good vendor support and reproducible builds. - Manjaro - possibly for users with bleeding edge hardware requiring latest kernels/drivers. #### Advanced Must provide some kind of advanced feature or purpose and support/aim to support reproducible builds. - Alpine Linux - ram disk, good for containers, hypervisor etc - Arch Linux - good documentation well known and supported - Debian - well known and supported by vendors - Guix - reproducible builds (a [main focus](https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2015/reproducible-builds-a-means-to-an-end/)), rollbacks, source based, better documentation than Nix (multiple languages translated). - Qubes OS - good distro for use with a hypervisor for people dealing with un-trusted files, want to use virtual machines without having to manage the hypervisor themselves. #### Tor focused distributions Distributions aimed at being configured default for torification of all network traffic - Tails - amnesic - Whonix - provides advanced Torification, physical isolation, etc.

❤️ 3

blacklight447 commented

2020-05-06 08:42:15 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

Qubes is not a hypervisor though :p

dngray commented

2020-05-06 10:25:51 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

Qubes is not a hypervisor though :p

rather you know what i mean, a distribution where someone can use one lol.. but yes, i wrote that after pulling an all-nighter.

> Qubes is not a hypervisor though :p rather you know what i mean, a distribution where someone can use one lol.. but yes, i wrote that after pulling an all-nighter.

ghost commented

2020-05-12 07:25:31 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

I'm against adding Void Linux.
Because it is not well documented.
wiki.voidlinux.org is currently unmaintained.
The alternative, docs.voidlinux.org, lacks content.

I'm against adding Void Linux. Because it is not well documented. wiki.voidlinux.org is currently unmaintained. The alternative, docs.voidlinux.org, lacks content.

CristianAUnisa commented

2020-05-12 08:41:23 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

Hey there, I'm usually lurking there because I find interesting discussions and I'd like to give my opinion on this matter. I'm not an expert tho, so feel free to ignore everything I'm writing on this post.

I was able to convince a person I care about to switch from Windows to a Linux OS (Linux Mint because it was the easiest choice for someone who's bad with computers). I feel like the warning about Windows 10, on the Operating Systems page, should be placed on top because a non-tech-savvy person could find it more interesting to learn first about the privacy problems of the most used PC OS.
I totally agree with this argument:

There are thousands of distributions out there and I really only want to recommend things are not niche, and are aimed at a wide community.

A tech-savvy person should be able to understand which distro is the best for them, but a non-tech-savvy one may not be able to do so; distros with good support and plenty of documentation can be truly helpful and I feel like it a guide about how to switch should be linked too. FireJail and ufw/gufw should be suggested too, they're nice tools for someone who's not running something designed for privacy and security. Encrypting the system would be a nice addition too, because while it's mostly a security matter, it's really easy to enable on most distros.

Thank you all for your work, I appreciate what you're doing.

Hey there, I'm usually lurking there because I find interesting discussions and I'd like to give my opinion on this matter. I'm not an expert tho, so feel free to ignore everything I'm writing on this post. I was able to convince a person I care about to switch from Windows to a Linux OS (Linux Mint because it was the easiest choice for someone who's bad with computers). I feel like the warning about Windows 10, on the Operating Systems page, should be placed on top because a non-tech-savvy person could find it more interesting to learn first about the privacy problems of the most used PC OS. I totally agree with this argument: > There are thousands of distributions out there and I really only want to recommend things are not niche, and are aimed at a wide community. A tech-savvy person should be able to understand which distro is the best for them, but a non-tech-savvy one may not be able to do so; distros with good support and plenty of documentation can be truly helpful and I feel like it a guide about how to switch should be linked too. FireJail and ufw/gufw should be suggested too, they're nice tools for someone who's not running something designed for privacy and security. Encrypting the system would be a nice addition too, because while it's mostly a security matter, it's really easy to enable on most distros. Thank you all for your work, I appreciate what you're doing.

ghost commented

2020-05-13 12:45:49 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

Linux Mint is not good.
It does not update the kernel by default. Leave the vulnerability.
The CJK input method installer is also unfriendly.

Linux Mint is not good. It does not update the kernel by default. Leave the vulnerability. The CJK input method installer is also unfriendly.

dngray commented

2020-05-16 09:06:11 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

While we're at it we should remove Replicant as well from the mobile section, as this really isn't usable anymore.

In regard to PC Live Operating Systems, this will become "Advanced" and we will use a badge to indicate if a distribution supports live-cd style booting, as a lot do.

While we're at it we should remove Replicant as well from the mobile section, as this really isn't usable anymore. In regard to PC Live Operating Systems, this will become "Advanced" and we will use a badge to indicate if a distribution supports live-cd style booting, as a lot do.

CristianAUnisa commented

2020-05-16 16:53:13 +00:00

(Migrated from github.com)

Linux Mint is not good.
It does not update the kernel by default. Leave the vulnerability.
The CJK input method installer is also unfriendly.

I missed your comment somehow, I apologize.
By the way, I'm not suggesting Linux Mint, I was only talking about my past experience (it happened many years ago).

While we're at it we should remove Replicant as well from the mobile section, as this really isn't usable anymore.

In regard to PC Live Operating Systems, this will become "Advanced" and we will use a badge to indicate if a distribution supports live-cd style booting, as a lot do.

Thank you for your work; encrypting the system should be suggested too, since it's painless and easy to enable in Basic distros

> Linux Mint is not good. > It does not update the kernel by default. Leave the vulnerability. > The CJK input method installer is also unfriendly. I missed your comment somehow, I apologize. By the way, I'm not suggesting Linux Mint, I was only talking about my past experience (it happened many years ago). > While we're at it we should remove Replicant as well from the mobile section, as this really isn't usable anymore. > > In regard to PC Live Operating Systems, this will become "Advanced" and we will use a badge to indicate if a distribution supports live-cd style booting, as a lot do. Thank you for your work; encrypting the system should be suggested too, since it's painless and easy to enable in Basic distros

This repo is archived. You cannot comment on issues.